[1]
From: "William S. Jewell" <wsj@EULER.BERKELEY.EDU>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1993 15:30:30 -0800
Subject: Re: apl-l UseNet batch for Mon Mar 29 23:59:09 AST 1993
(1) I suggest subscribers NOT send Postscript Files thru the net (cbbrowne).
Why not state availability and give FTP file name ?
(2) After three months of wading through all of supposedly APL-stuff on this
net, I estimate that 98% is on J !! Could you please separate this
server into <J> and <APL> ?
*===============================*===========================================**
|| William S. Jewell | e-mail: wsj@euler.Berkeley.edu ||
|| IEOR - 4173 Etcheverry | ||
|| University of California | phone: +1 510 642-4928 (answer sys) ||
|| Berkeley, CA 94720 USA | fax: +1 510 643-8982 (EngSysResCtr) ||
**==============================*===========================================**
[2]
From: "L.J. Dickey" <ljdickey@math.uwaterloo.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1993 00:08:45 GMT
Subject: APL vs J
In an article posted today, wsj writes:
>Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1993 15:30:30 -0800
> From: "William S. Jewell" <wsj@EULER.BERKELEY.EDU>
> After three months of wading through all of supposedly
> APL-stuff on this net, I estimate that 98% is on J !!
> Could you please separate this server into <J> and <APL> ?
First of all, the "server" he refers to is the LISTSERV server at UNB,
which forwards the contents of "comp.lang.apl" to about one hundred or
so people who receive e-mail, but who can not otherwise get the news
group. The software at UNB simply does not support this kind of a
split. How would one do it anyway?
I would suggest to wsj@euler.berkeley.edu, and anyone else who shares
his feelings: post something about APL ! Share some code, pose some
questions.
On another note,
In the scheme of things, among the usenet news groups, the group
comp.lang.apl is a _very_ small one. Once it was near extinction, and
it was only because one person spoke up that it was not eliminated
altogether.
I think it is generally difficult to start new usenet groups under the
"comp" heierarchy. Any usenet user can pose the question, call for
discussion, and so on, in the right place. And then there has to be a
vote. I don't know the rules, but the practices are interesting in
themselves. (I find it a curious mix of anarchy and democracy.)
If indeed the ratio is 98%, (not quite, I think) that might mean
that there is not enough volume to keep "comp.lang.apl" going.
Since October 1990, the most exciting developments in APL
have been those introduced into J. Some readers are probably
not aware that some of most interesting features in J have existed
previously in other APLs, and that most of the rest of the
interesting new stuff in J could be easily put into existing
APLs as extensions in a way that conforms to the ISO standard.
All APLers would do well to understand what these features are.
I do not want to start the debate as to whether or not J is a
dialect of APL. Let us say only that J grew out of APL.
Would you agree with me when I say:
The bigest news about APL is that now there
are three or four versions that run under windows.
I know that ISI, Manugistics, Dyalog all run under windows, and
it might be that a product that uses APL2 is on the verge of being
launched. Are there others? (yawn).
If you disagree with me, tell me please: in your opinion,
what exciting new language features have been introduced
into your favorite flavour of APL?
[3]
From: "H. Haussmann" <haussman%ds0ruh11.bitnet@utcc.utoronto.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1993 03:30:36 -0400
Subject: Re: apl-l UseNet batch for Sun Mar 21 23:59:07 AST 1993
Is there any discussion group on APL2 and serious work? I am fed up
with this play about the mysterious letter j!
Hans Haussmann, Department for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding
(470) Universitaet Hohenheim, D7000 Stuttgart 70, FRG
Phone 0711-459-2476 (-3006), Fax 0711-459-3290
[4]
From: volker@sfb256.iam.uni-bonn.de ( Volker A. Brandt )
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1993 16:00:03 GMT
Subject: Re: APL vs J
In article <9304030008.AA09782@math.uwaterloo.ca> "L.J. Dickey" <ljdickey@math.uwaterloo.ca> writes:
>In an article posted today, wsj writes:
> > Could you please separate this server into <J> and <APL> ?
A thought that I also had, but since total volume is still small in c.l.apl,
I let it rest ...
>I would suggest to wsj@euler.berkeley.edu, and anyone else who shares
>his feelings: post something about APL ! Share some code, pose some
>questions.
Yes! That's better!
>On another note,
>
>In the scheme of things, among the usenet news groups, the group
>comp.lang.apl is a _very_ small one. Once it was near extinction, and
>it was only because one person spoke up that it was not eliminated
>altogether.
Judging from recent traffic, the J topics are what keep c.l.apl from being
endangered again ...
>Since October 1990, the most exciting developments in APL
>have been those introduced into J.
[...]
>All APLers would do well to understand what these features are.
True, although it is hard to see those features clearly when you follow the
J-related discussion. Although I could run J, I do not have time to do so,
and thus I don't understand most of what's said in the J discussions.
>Would you agree with me when I say:
>
> The bigest news about APL is that now there
> are three or four versions that run under windows.
Somehow this doesn't strike me that hard :-) I want an APL2 that's affordable,
and I want it on my Atari ST, on my IBM PC, and -- most of all -- a free
portable APL2 in the Gnu tradition.
>I know that ISI, Manugistics, Dyalog all run under windows, and
>it might be that a product that uses APL2 is on the verge of being
>launched. Are there others? (yawn).
If ISI accepted credit cards, I'd have ordered their version long ago, $30 is
what I call affordable, even if it isn't [yet] APL2.
>If you disagree with me, tell me please: in your opinion,
>what exciting new language features have been introduced
>into your favorite flavour of APL?
Hmmm ... I'm still trying to learn how to use all those exciting new APL2
features :-)
And then, "David Liebtag" <LIEBTAG@STLVM20.VNET.IBM.COM> writes:
>Was that article designed to incite argument? :-)
It seems so ;-)
>Much as I find J fascinating, I don't agree that the only fascinating
>things to happen in the APL world all revolve around J and Windows.
>They're great, but not all there is.
Weeell, I hate to pick on you, but I have a very hard time explaining to my
clients than want to run IBM APL2/PC 1.02 on their PC why they have to throw
out their IBM DOS 5.0 EMM program on their IBM PCs to be able to run the 32 bit
version at all ... an IBM APL2/PC using XMS in a transparent fashion, that's
what I would call exciting :-)
While APL wouldn't exist without IBM, and I like APL2/PC, I feel that IBM is
orphaning APL as a product. Or have I missed the 32-bit fully PM-integrated
APL2 for OS/2 2.x? ;-)))
>Yawn, I hope I can avoid another great my language is better than
>yours debate.
We'll see ...
Have fun -- Volker
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bitnet: UNM409@DBNRHRZ1 Volker A. Brandt
Internet: volker@sfb256.iam.uni-bonn.de Angewandte Mathematik
Phone: +49 228 73 3427 (Bonn, Germany)
[5]
From: sam@csi.jpl.nasa.gov (Sam Sirlin)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1993 17:37:58 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: apl-l UseNet batch for Sun Mar 21 23: 59:07 AST 1993
In article <9304050716.AA08493@unb.ca>, "H. Haussmann" <haussman%ds0ruh11.bitnet@UTCC.UTORONTO.CA> writes:
|> Is there any discussion group on APL2 and serious work? I am fed up
|> with this play about the mysterious letter j!
Feel free to start. Most (almost all) of us have access to j, but not
to APL2. What else would you expect but that the preponderance of
articles are about j?
--
Sam Sirlin
Jet Propulsion Laboratory sam@kalessin.jpl.nasa.gov
[6]
From: rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Robert Bernecky)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 93 18:08:04 GMT
Subject: Re: apl-l UseNet batch for Sun Mar 21 23:59:07 AST 1993
In article <93Apr5.031407edt.9498@ugw.utcc.utoronto.ca> "H. Haussmann" <haussman%ds0ruh11.bitnet@utcc.utoronto.ca> writes:
>Is there any discussion group on APL2 and serious work? I am fed up
>with this play about the mysterious letter j!
I find it interesting, myself, that very few APLers have anything to say
in this group (APL2 or other APLs). I can only guess that are two reasons for
it:
a. Everything in APL2 is so easy that there is no need for discussion
about it. (Somehow, I doubt this...)
b. The APL2 people are still trying to figure out how to type in the DEL,
so that they can enter a function.
Bob
ps; The above is a joke. Sort of.
Robert Bernecky rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.com bernecky@itrchq.itrc.on.ca
Snake Island Research Inc (416) 368-6944 FAX: (416) 360-4694
18 Fifth Street, Ward's Island
Toronto, Ontario M5J 2B9
Canada
[7]
From: BILL KNIGHT <WRK0000@UNB.CA>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1993 14:08:28 GMT
Subject: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ?
For those of us dogs who are too old to learn new tricks,
and therefore find this discussion group cluttered with
long J programs, comments, and news about J we don't want,
could not a new forum be established for J,
leaving this one to APL in keeping with its name?
Bill Knight / University of New Brunswick / Canada
[8]
From: sam@csi.jpl.nasa.gov (Sam Sirlin)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: 26 Aug 1993 21:18:18 GMT
Subject: Re: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ?
In article <26AUG93.10952471.0193@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>, BILL KNIGHT <WRK0000@UNB.CA> writes:
|> For those of us dogs who are too old to learn new tricks,
|> and therefore find this discussion group cluttered with
|> long J programs, comments, and news about J we don't want,
|> could not a new forum be established for J,
|> leaving this one to APL in keeping with its name?
I suppose I must then be a young pup, since I learned J, and would
call it a dialect of APL. APL2 though still leaves me a bit cold. It
often doesn't look much like the APL I know. Perhaps that should be
another separate newsgroup? Frankly I think there aren't enough
APL/J/APL2ers to support 2 or three groups. This is really a pretty
small and inactive group as newsgroups go.
--
Sam Sirlin
Jet Propulsion Laboratory sam@kalessin.jpl.nasa.gov
[9]
From: Lloyd M. Waugh <waugh@unb.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1993 16:46:55 GMT
Subject: Re: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ?
In article <25j9aq$opc@csi.jpl.nasa.gov> Sam Sirlin, sam@csi.jpl.nasa.gov
writes:
>In article <26AUG93.10952471.0193@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>, BILL KNIGHT
<WRK0000@UNB.CA> writes:
>|> For those of us dogs who are too old to learn new tricks,
>|> and therefore find this discussion group cluttered with
>|> long J programs, comments, and news about J we don't want,
>|> could not a new forum be established for J,
>|> leaving this one to APL in keeping with its name?
>
>I suppose I must then be a young pup, since I learned J, and would
>call it a dialect of APL. APL2 though still leaves me a bit cold. It
>often doesn't look much like the APL I know. Perhaps that should be
>another separate newsgroup? Frankly I think there aren't enough
>APL/J/APL2ers to support 2 or three groups. This is really a pretty
>small and inactive group as newsgroups go.
>
It seems that most of the articles in this news group are on J, and that
the audience for APL and APL2 is probably getting discouraged just
because of the sheer volume of J articles that they have to delete. If
my assumption (that people are being turned off) is correct, then we must
publicize a solution.
Lloyd Waugh, Civil Engineering, University of New Brunswick.
[10]
From: mclean@futon.SFSU.EDU (Emmett Mclean)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: 28 Aug 93 15:13:16 PDT
Subject: Re: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ?
>
> For those of us dogs who are too old to learn new tricks,
> and therefore find this discussion group cluttered with
> long J programs, comments, and news about J we don't want,
> could not a new forum be established for J,
> leaving this one to APL in keeping with its name?
>
Several issues :
1. Even before J came along APL did not generate much usenet
traffic. According to Dr. Dickey at one point there was
talk of discontinuing comp.lang.apl.
2. IMO it is difficult to presume APL'ers are discouraged
from posting by reading about J. In fact the opposite may
be true, perhaps we see more questions about fonts
and APL stuff because some APL'ers are annoyed by J
traffic. IMO, the largest source of discouragement
to c.l.a is that APL'ers find that the effort they
put into writting their posts is not worth the lack
of attention they get for writting them. For example,
Mr. Levine made two indepth posts, one about ISI APL
and another about the workspace translation material
in the newest version of ISI APL. No APL'ers followed
up on c.l.a. Furthermore, it is my understanding that
no APL'ers followed up via email either. After that Mr.
Levine hasn't posted.
3. Except for several informative posts by David Liebtag at
IBM, APL software venders ignore comp.lang.apl. Perhaps
APL'ers could be encouraged if a vender compared their
product with J. Or perhaps venders could take APL out
of its ascii rut and most some C code which uses []NA.
News about the control structures future dialects of APL
would be nice too. But as it is, APL venders are ignoring a
place where they can market and make a case for their products.
4. The *real* major source of discouragement is that APL
is losing popularity in general. (IBM changing the price of
APL2, at least temporaily is a step in the right direction.)
5. Finally, *I* find it annoying to see posts by people with
nothing to say except that they hear too much about J.
C.l.a could get to the state to where APL'ers are too lethargic
to post or demonstrate an interest in APL and J programmers
won't want to post for fear of discouraging APL'ers. I say,
if you're into J you may not be posting enough.
One complaint we hear from APLer's is that they are not interested
in hearing news about C programs are called from J. But shouldn't
APL'ers be able to read the C code, touch it up, and make it
part of their version of APL? Shouldn't it be easier now, for
example, to start on an APL2-Lapack or APL2-Plus/Lapack interface?
-emmett
[11]
From: gaylord@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard J. Gaylord)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1993 07:47:24 GMT
Subject: Re: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ?
In article <1993Aug28.164655.17850@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>, Lloyd M. Waugh
<waugh@unb.ca> wrote:
> In article <25j9aq$opc@csi.jpl.nasa.gov> Sam Sirlin, sam@csi.jpl.nasa.gov
> writes:
> >In article <26AUG93.10952471.0193@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>, BILL KNIGHT
> <WRK0000@UNB.CA> writes:
> >|> For those of us dogs who are too old to learn new tricks,
> >|> and therefore find this discussion group cluttered with
> >|> long J programs, comments, and news about J we don't want,
> >|> could not a new forum be established for J,
> >|> leaving this one to APL in keeping with its name?
> >
========
this is basically the same complaint we get in sci.math.symbolic regarding
mathematica programming.
here are some responses that we make to sci.math.symbolic [these can also
be used for comp. lang..apl by changing mathematica to j and
sci.math.symbiolic to comp.langapl.
(1) were it not for discsussion of commercial computer algebra systems like
mathematica there would be alomst no traffic in the group.
(2) one very important role of the news groups is as an resource for
novices to the subject. mathematica people created their own groups, who is
going to find them o reven know to look for them. this is the most
important issue for a 'new'language which is not well known and wants to
make people aware of its existence.
(3) sci.math.symbolic is seen in many many places. establshing a new group
takes a bit of effort and time and many sites would probably not pick up
the new group.
(4) the mathematica people are quite satisfied (for now) with being on
comp.lang.symbolic and don't intend to move [but one day when everyone is
aware of and there is a large number of users [one indication of this will
be when a substantial number of universites teach mathematica as a
programming language], we will want to establish our own
comp.lang.mathematica.
-richard-
"if you're not programming functionally, then you're programming
dysfunctionally"
[12]
From: ljdickey@math.uwaterloo.ca (L.J. Dickey)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1993 04:29:09 GMT
Subject: Re: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ?
In article <25tf8rINNmi3@phage.cshl.org> wchang@phage.cshl.org ( CSHL) writes:
>In article <1993Aug28.151317.6360@nic.csu.net> mclean@futon.SFSU.EDU
>(Emmett Mclean) makes several points regarding c.l.a. My general
>comments follow:
>
>Do we have any idea what the readership is? We need a survey
>very badly.
There are about 100 people who subscribe to the BITNET list
APL-L@UNB.CA. This number has held steady, but there seem to be
people hopping on and dropping off all the time.
There are subscribers to an APL forum within compuserv, and these include
more than those compuserv customers whose names are on the bitnet list.
There are some wild-eyed guesses about the size of usenet, and the number
of readers there are. These get posted on a regular basis. If I can
find one, I will send it to you.
>Is anyone here seriously interested in programming language
>design and implementation issues, particularly regarding APL? (I am.)
>My experience is that "mainstream" (for better or for worse)
>computer scientists are shut out of c.l.a. because some APLers
>think traditional C.S. can contribute nothing to APL.
? ?
I thought it was the other way around!
--
Prof. Leroy J. Dickey, Faculty of Mathematics, U of Waterloo, Canada N2L 3G1
Internet: ljdickey@math.UWaterloo.ca
ljdickey@math.waterloo.edu
UUCP: ljdickey@watmath.UUCP
[13]
From: gaylord@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard J. Gaylord)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: 31 Aug 1993 07:09:24 GMT
Subject: Re: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ?
before we decide to set up a group devoted to J, we might want to wait a
while to see if arthur whitney follows through and makes his K language
available, it could well replace J. i saw it at the APL93 meeting and it
was incrediibly nice; much prettier syntax than J - see his article in the
latest VEC%TOR.
btw - does anyone have arthur's address or tel. no. i've lost it and he's
not regularly on the net. thanks.
"if you're not programming functionally, then you're programming
dysfunctionally"
[14]
From: gsd@ipsalab.tor.Soliton.COM (Dennis, Gary S.)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: 2 Sep 93 14:00:02 UT
Subject: Re: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ?
-----------Message forwarded from IPSA Mailbox-------------
no. 186440 filed 13.48.14 thu 2 sep 1993
from gsd
to uclapl
subj Re: HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ?
ref 186367
expy 0.00.00 3 oct 1993
Re: Emmett Mclean's excellent response
I guess I'd qualify as an old dog, having been involved with APL for 20
years and having thus far managed not to make the jump to J - lack of time
to spend on it, a couple of really nice APL's to play with (ours and Eric's)
and the fact that I haven't needed to do anything yet that cried out for
some neat new J feature being the primary reasons.
As a non J person, I must confess that I too wind up tossing most J traffic
after skimming it for relevance to the stuff I use - but I don't agree that
a new group is needed. J is a variant of APL, a fair-sized chunk of the APL
community are also J freaks, and it seems to me that J fans and more
traditional APL fans have a lot in common and a strong need to keep sharing
their ideas with each other.
I have a couple of observations on Emmett's observations, though:
1) Response to posts appears to fluctuate wildly. While Mr. Levine's
excellent posts may have appeared to fall on deaf ears at the time, I've
gotten several responses to my recent much more trivial posting about ISI
APL - and I'm pretty well convinced that the folks who responded will order
products from ISI. I'm sorry to hear that Mr. Levine has decided posting is
a waste of time - it may well be that his work fueled some thought on
somebody's part that they didn't feel like posting, and I hope he'll
reconsider.
2) Vendors ignore comp.lang.apl??!!!
Good grief!! 8 of the 31 employee/associates at Soliton Associates (vendors
of SHARP APL), including a couple of senior developers, senior tech support
and marketing people and our CEO are faithful readers. Admittedly, I'm the
only one here who posts very much (every couple of months, on the average)
and my posts tend to be endorsements for ISI's products or announcements
regarding our own stuff - occasionally the company routes stuff through me
as I'm known to post occasionally and USENET transmission from our system is
a mildly convoluted and not generally known process.
I've had something of a tendency to act as a net mouthpiece for Eric
Iverson of ISI - this is ending, as he's now enrolled in comp.lang.apl via
our system (his net address is ebi@ipsalab.tor.soliton.com for the moment
and will probably be ebi@soliton.com as soon as we can get him enrolled
directly on our gateway system) and has promised (in a conversation at
APL93) to read the net feed fairly frequently and respond as necessary, once
he gets back from vacation next week.
There are the aforementioned David Leibtag posts, and I've seen a post from
James Wheeler sometime this year. While I think it can fairly be claimed
that the vendors don't contribute a lot to the programming-techniques
discussions that form the bulk of comp.lang.apl, we ARE listening and some
of us aren't shy about hopping on the net when we think we have something
useful to contribute.
3. Loss of popularity: IBM's price breaks and ISI's effectively-free APLs
should help with this, as may Manugistics' new INCA (It's Not Called
APL) project which hopes to get a toe in the door of the anti-APL bigots and
the world at large by providing groovy application-building tools with APL
secretly lurking in their depths.
/Gary Dennis (gsd@soliton.com)
-----------------------------------------------------------
This posting is forwarded from an internal Soliton mailbox.
No statement or opinion contained herein should be taken as
being Soliton policy, or even as being approved by Soliton,
in any way.
[15]
From: "H. Haussmann" <haussman%ds0ruh11.bitnet@UTCC.UTORONTO.CA>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: 03 Sep 93 12:46:48 GMT
Subject: no subject given
Please establish a separate discussion group for J! Otherwise I will
sign off.
Hans Haussmann, Department for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding,
University of Hohenheim, Germany.
Address: Universitaet Hohenheim (470/HG), D-70593 Stuttgart
Phone: 0711-459-2476 (-3006), Fax: 0711-459-3290
E-Mail: haussman at ds0ruh11.bitnet
[16]
From: gaylord@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard J. Gaylord)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: 3 Sep 1993 15:38:21 GMT
Subject: Re: no subject given
In article <19930903.094648.25171@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>, "H. Haussmann"
<haussman%ds0ruh11.bitnet@UTCC.UTORONTO.CA> wrote:
> Please establish a separate discussion group for J! Otherwise I will
> sign off.
>
> Hans Haussmann, Department for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding,
> University of Hohenheim, Germany.
> Address: Universitaet Hohenheim (470/HG), D-70593 Stuttgart
> Phone: 0711-459-2476 (-3006), Fax: 0711-459-3290
> E-Mail: haussman at ds0ruh11.bitnet
======================
we'll miss you.
--
"if you're not programming functionally, then you're programming
dysfunctionally"
[17]
From: murray@thales.tmc.edu (Murray Eisenberg)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: 7 Sep 1993 03:07:46 GMT
Subject: Re: J and comp.lang.apl
In article <19930903.094648.25171@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca> "H. Haussmann" <haussman%ds0ruh11.bitnet@UTCC.UTORONTO.CA> writes:
>Please establish a separate discussion group for J! Otherwise I will
>sign off.
>
Please do NOT separate J from other APL. First, on logical grounds:
those who have kept up with APL developments over the years know that
J is a natural outgrowth of APL development over quite a few years
(I'm not attempting to tackle the question of whether J is a different
language than APL, or merely a dialect, although I have my opinion).
Second, on practical grounds: there IS some community of common
interest between (traditional) APL and J -- after all Iverson
Software, Inc. produces both APL and J.
Those who do not wish to see J stuff can readily avoid it through
their news reader. For the rest of us, it's easier to find what we
are interested in a single news group than in two separate ones.
(If the amount of traffic in this news group should grow
significantly, then that might be the time to contemplate such a split
into two as some now advocate.)
--
Murray Eisenberg Internet: murray@math.umass.edu
Mathematics & Statistics Dept. Voice: 413-545-2859 (W)
University of Massachusetts 413-549-1020 (H)
Amherst, MA 01003 Fax: 413-545-1801
[18]
From: cbrady@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Chris Brady The RA")
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 14:46:18 GMT
Subject: Howzabout creating a J conference??
I am an APLer of some 10 years hence my membership of this conference. I
am not interested in J even if it is APL-like. Can someone create a J
conference and keep this for APL, please? Many thanks.
[19]
From: skybird@satelnet.org (Scott Pallack)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: 11 Jun 1994 13:54:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Howzabout creating a J conference??
In <Cr6rp6.MGu@cix.compulink.co.uk> cbrady@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Chris Brady The RA") writes:
>I am an APLer of some 10 years hence my membership of this conference. I
>am not interested in J even if it is APL-like. Can someone create a J
>conference and keep this for APL, please? Many thanks.
Why? They are the same language.
--
INTPs of the world UNITE! Join the INTP mailing list. To subscribe email
listserv@satelnet.org with body: SUBSCRIBE INTP (subject: ignored)
If you don't know what INTP means, finger skybird@satelnet.org
Scott Pallack skybird@satelnet.org
[20]
From: Beattie@hignfy.demon.co.uk (John Beattie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 08:45:18 +0000
Subject: Re: Howzabout creating a J conference??
In article <2tctoj$c8j@sefl.satelnet.org>
skybird@satelnet.org "Scott Pallack" writes:
[snip]
>
>Why? They are the same language.
Dialects at best. As a comparison, Norwegians & Swedes can talk to each other
but not read each others text. (At least, that is what I have been
told.)
There seems to be very little cross-reference between APL threads and J
threads, so at first sight two groups seems like a good idea. However,
would separate groups mean that 'APL'-only readers don't get J posts?
Perhaps people will post in whatever group they happen to be reading and
the two groups will get mixed up again or one will die.
--
John Beattie
internet:beattie@hignfy.demon.co.uk
[21]
From: gsd@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Gary S Dennis)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 14:23:16 GMT
Subject: Re: Howzabout creating a J conference??
In <Cr6rp6.MGu@cix.compulink.co.uk>, Chris Brady writes:
>I am an APLer of some 10 years hence my membership of this conference. I
>am not interested in J even if it is APL-like. Can someone create a J
>conference and keep this for APL, please? Many thanks.
This subject has inspired some lengthy flame wars in the past. Let's hope it
doesn't this time. Let me take a quick run at what I believe to be the
majority opinion among current comp.lang.apl participants:
J is a legitimate variant of APL and algorithms have a strong tendency to be
easily adaptable from one to the other. Due to the character limitations of
Usenet, it is much easier to post programs written in J than it is for APL.
Hopefully Unicode will solve that problem for us someday, but that's a year
or 3 off yet.
More importantly, APL and J programmers tend to share the APL world view and
have a common interest in promoting usage of both languages. The languages
are Siamese twins, a lot of people use both languages depending on what they
need to do, and there's very little to be gained, and much lost, from
dividing our tiny community into two even tinier groups.
I am an APLer of 21 years experience and, I blush to say, have yet to invest
the time to learn J, as I'm chronically swamped with other demands. But I AM
interested in seeing the J traffic go by, and would prefer to continue as a
single newsgroup. I can always toss a given post as soon as I determine it's
not of interest. While I'm no expert on killfile construction, I suspect one
can build one that specifically excludes all traffic with " J " anywhere in
its subject line, so that one never has to see the J stuff. Somebody else in
the group will doubtless explain how, if they're familiar with your
particular news reader.
I hope you can find it in your heart to tolerate the J traffic or exclude it
somehow at your end - the group isn't likely to split any time soon, and it's
a loss to all of us when any of us drop out.
/Gary Dennis (gsd@soliton.com)
/Soliton Associates Limited (makers of SHARP APL)
/speaking for myself in this instance
[22]
From: bobs@access.digex.net (Bob Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 14:03:05
Subject: Re: Howzabout creating a J conference??
In article <1994Jun14.142316.5015@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM> gsd@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Gary S Dennis) writes:
>From: gsd@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Gary S Dennis)
>Subject: Re: Howzabout creating a J conference??
>Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 14:23:16 GMT
>In <Cr6rp6.MGu@cix.compulink.co.uk>, Chris Brady writes:
>>I am an APLer of some 10 years hence my membership of this conference. I
>>am not interested in J even if it is APL-like. Can someone create a J
>>conference and keep this for APL, please? Many thanks.
[cogent argument deleted]
As one who is not literate in J programming, I can see how it can be
frustrating to see J's ASCII symbols fly by, coupled with (at least my)
inability to distinguish sentence punctuation from J syntax (is that
sentence clause missing an opening brace or is there a piece of J buried
later on?).
This suggests that J writers (when they cross the street are they J walkers?)
should be careful to avoid this confusion. At least APL writers have the
mixed blessing of rarely confusing the reader as to whether that {rho} or
{epsilon} was English or APL syntax (of course, these same writers can't get
their cherished glyphs into print, at least not in this medium). I find it
ironic that one of the guiding principles of J (no more glyphs -- sounds like
a T-shirt) can turn around and bite its proponents who sprinkle its syntax
into English sentences in such a way that it is difficult to parse!
Nonetheless, I believe we would all be diminished if these two close languages
were to sunder. One lesson that should have been learned by the many of us
who suffered through the early years of APL's growth is tolerance.
To APL fans: Rather than relegate J-oriented messages to a killfile, read and
learn from them. If the messages are sufficiently well-written, you should be
able to absorb the concepts and apply them to your APL programs. Remember all
your friends whom you tried to interest in this thing called APL? The tables
have turned. Listen and learn!
To J fans: Greet this new audience as intelligent programmers with a solid
grounding in array-oriented structures and all that goes with that. You will
never get a better class of students! Sieze this opportunity to educate and
elucidate. Emphasize the positive aspects of J, and explain what you're doing.
Ok, let's all kiss and make up.
[23]
From: donwiss@panix.com (Don Wiss)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 16:35:02 GMT
Subject: Re: What's All the Fuss About 'J'?
On Sun, 29 Oct 1995, Lee Dickey <ljdickey@math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>> I keep perusing the FAQ's but with no success: what is J? Is it some
>> improvement over APL, or just a minor modification, the way C++ is to C.
>>
>> -- Scott McC.
>
>Welcome to the discussion about APL and J.
>There are some FAQs for J itself. Check out the J Archives.
>It has several introductory papers for beginners.
>Point your world wide web brouser at
>
> ftp://archive.uwaterloo.ca/languages/j/Welcome.html
But why is J in the same group here with APL? Why doesn't it have its own
newsgroup/mailing list?
Don.
[24]
From: jimw@math.umass.edu (Jim Weigang)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 23:47:38 GMT
Subject: Re: What's All the Fuss About 'J'?
Don Wiss wrote on 29 Oct 1995:
> But why is J in the same group here with APL? Why doesn't it have its
> own newsgroup/mailing list?
This subject has come up before and did not result in compelling reasons
to separate the groups. I've put what I was able to find on the topic
in a file (size=54K):
(Obsolete URL deleted. You're looking at the file.)
I'm not trying to stifle discussion, but I urge posters to read the
thread before adding to it. For those who have a copy of the APL
Newsreader and comp.lang.apl archive, the threadheads are:
[1] 2 Apr 93 (21) Jewell, William S apl-l UseNet batch for Mon Mar 29 23
[2] 3 Apr 93 (68) Dickey, L. J. APL vs J
[5] 5 Apr 93 (14) Haussmann, H. apl-l UseNet batch for Sun Mar 21 23
[10] 26 Aug 93 (17) KNIGHT, BILL HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ?
[24] 3 Sep 93 (19) Haussmann, H. no subject given
[26] 7 Sep 93 (40) Eisenberg, Murray J and comp.lang.apl
[27] 10 Jun 94 (13) Brady, Chris Howzabout creating a J conference??
If you would like to get a free copy of the APL Newsreader and full
comp.lang.apl archive, see the newsreader item in:
http://www.chilton.com/~jimw
or e-mail me if you don't have WWW access.
Jim
[25]
From: donwiss@panix.com (Don Wiss)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 18:57:05 GMT
Subject: Re: What's All the Fuss About 'J'?
On Sun, 29 Oct 1995 23:47:38 GMT, jimw@math.umass.edu (Jim Weigang) wrote:
>[1] 2 Apr 93 (21) Jewell, William S apl-l UseNet batch for Mon Mar 29 23
>[2] 3 Apr 93 (68) Dickey, L. J. APL vs J
>[5] 5 Apr 93 (14) Haussmann, H. apl-l UseNet batch for Sun Mar 21 23
>[10] 26 Aug 93 (17) KNIGHT, BILL HOW ABOUT A NEWS GROUP FOR *J* ?
>[24] 3 Sep 93 (19) Haussmann, H. no subject given
>[26] 7 Sep 93 (40) Eisenberg, Murray J and comp.lang.apl
>[27] 10 Jun 94 (13) Brady, Chris Howzabout creating a J conference??
I would hope that the traffic of J related messages is greater now that it
was two years ago (when I was not here). Is J not a growing language that
should have its own recognition?
Don.
[26]
From: Jim Weigang <jimw@MATH.UMASS.EDU>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: 31 Oct 95 05:23:38 GMT
Subject: Re: What's All the Fuss About 'J'?
Don Wiss wrote on 30 Oct 1995 18:57:05 GMT:
> I would hope that the traffic of J related messages is greater now
> that it was two years ago (when I was not here). Is J not a growing
> language that should have its own recognition?
Comp.lang.apl volume:
Bytes Posts
--------- -----
1989-91 1,904,775 1,100
1992 2,127,552 1,010
1993 3,499,003 1,429
1994 5,166,491 2,231
1995 4,133,406 1,885
1996 4,200,000 1,900 (est. as of June)
The question is not whether J deserves its own group, it's whether
comp.lang.apl would survive if the J postings were removed. There are
other good reasons for keeping the groups together. Read the thread.
Jim
[27]
From: Bj=?iso-8859-1?Q?=F6rn Helgason <bjornhp@simi.is>?=
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 08:06:34 +0000
Subject: Apl and J
Martin Neitzel
...>[PS: "ascii as a tool of iceland" -- would "Bjoern" be
...> better surrogate for your name than "Bjorn"? Im still
...> 8-bit-challenged.]
Because my name is neither "Bjorn" nor "Bjoern" I prefer Gosi
which travels well in the 7-bit world. The letter that does
not travel is "o" with two dots on top. It is number 214 in
codepage 1252. It is number 153 in codepages 850 and 861. In
roman8 it is number 218. In unicode it is number 214 0 or 0 214.
...> "J is a dialect of APL,
...> a formal imperative language."
That does NOT imply that it must necessarily be discussed in
the same newsgroup as APL all the time.
I am sure that once we have two newsgroups there will be
occasional cross-references. Many people sending contributions
to both.
If you look under Basic you see:
"comp.lang.basic.*(5 groups)
comp.lang.basic.misc
comp.lang.basic.visual*(4 groups)
comp.lang.basic.visual.3rdparty
comp.lang.basic.visual.announce
comp.lang.basic.visual.database
comp.lang.basic.visual.misc"
There is no reason why we should not have a different structure
for APL and J.
"comp.lang.apl.*(12 groups)
comp.lang.apl.misc
comp.lang.apl.visual.*(4 groups)
comp.lang.apl.visual.3rdparty
comp.lang.apl.visual.announce
comp.lang.apl.visual.database
comp.lang.apl.visual.misc
comp.lang.apl.dialects*(7 groups)
comp.lang.apl.dialects.apl2
comp.lang.apl.dialects.j*(5 groups)
comp.lang.apl.dialects.j.misc
comp.lang.apl.dialects.j.visual.*(4 groups)
comp.lang.apl.dialects.j.visual.3rdparty
comp.lang.apl.dialects.j.visual.announce
comp.lang.apl.dialects.j.visual.database
comp.lang.apl.dialects.j.visual.misc
comp.lang.dialects.k"
There are reasons to believe that more people would be willing to
participate in apl/j related issues if the topics would be separated
a bit so the simple minds could get a place to get a place to went
out the initial problems of getting to know apl/j in more specific
newsgroups.
Obviously the explosion of the webtools and the spread of
newsreaders have made it simpler and easier for a lot of people to
participate in newsgroups.
For those who do not have access to easy to use newsreaders it could
possibly be possible to give them an option to subscribe to all
apl related newsgroups with one request and be updated on all
new groups. They could then remove them individually if they are not
interested in a particular topic.
Trying to put all apl/j related issues into one newsgroup may be
a hindrance to the spread of apl/j.
There is already time announced for the first J user conference and
J has at least one own web page. Apl2 has similarily had its own
events.
Even if Apl2 and J have both their origin in APL they have both
changed quite a lot from each other and aspects of both should
really be discussed in separate newsgroups even if some issues
can be discussed one newsgroup or even sent to both (all ?).
/Gosi
bjornhp@simi.is
http://www.jsoftware.com
[28]
From: moth@magenta.com (Soft Wings)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: 04 Mar 1996 17:34:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Apl and J
Note that the primary justification for splitting newsgroups is
traffic.
Perhaps there's enough traffic to justify splitting off a second
newsgroup for j. I doubt there's currently enough traffic to fill out
much more than a second group (though that may eventually change).
--
Raul
[29]
From: Björn Helgason <bjornhp@simi.is>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 08:15:48 +0000
Subject: Apl and J
moth@magenta.com (Soft Wings)Raul writes:
...> Note that the primary justification for splitting newsgroups is
...> traffic. Perhaps there's enough traffic to justify splitting off
...> a second newsgroup for j.
It is quite interesting that we should split the group if there is too
much traffic. My argument is the opposite. We should split the group
to get more traffic. I think potential traffic about J is not finding
a newsgroup. That is my main reason for wanting a newsgroup for J.
I want to continue to participate in APL even if a new group is formed
for J. I want to be able to use APL again if/when APL and Icelandic
can begin to coexist and be accepted by users.
What does it take to start a newsgroup ?
--
/Gosi
bjornhp@simi.is
http://www.jsoftware.com
Bjorn Helgason
Spitalastig 4
101 Reykjavik
Iceland
[30]
From: kbi@zap.io.org (Kirk B. Iverson)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: 5 Mar 1996 15:01:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Apl and J
In article <313BF834.2679@simi.is>, Björn Helgason <bjornhp@simi.is> wrote:
>moth@magenta.com (Soft Wings)Raul writes:
>
>...> Note that the primary justification for splitting newsgroups is
>...> traffic. Perhaps there's enough traffic to justify splitting off
>...> a second newsgroup for j.
>
>It is quite interesting that we should split the group if there is too
>much traffic. My argument is the opposite. We should split the group
>to get more traffic. I think potential traffic about J is not finding
>a newsgroup. That is my main reason for wanting a newsgroup for J.
>
>I want to continue to participate in APL even if a new group is formed
>for J. I want to be able to use APL again if/when APL and Icelandic
>can begin to coexist and be accepted by users.
>
>What does it take to start a newsgroup ?
You can learn more about Usenet news group creation at:
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/creating-newsgroups/top.html
In a nutshell, a Request For Discussion (RFD) is posted and discussed
in the group news.groups. The important aspects of the proposal which
will be questioned are:
1/ is the new group properly named? Ie does it fit in the hierarchy
properly. I doubt whether there is much question over comp.lang.j.
2/ is there enough traffic to support such a group. This is determined
by *existing* traffic patterns, rather than anticipated traffic.
Here's where I think comp.lang.j will have a problem.
After a period of discussion, the original proponents can request a Call
For Votes. A carried vote must have 2/3s of the votes in favor, *and*
the yes votes must exceed the no votes by at least 100.
The point of the vote, by the way, is not to see whether the majority
of readers in the affected news groups desire a new group, but to
convince the news administrators around the world that it is worthwhile
for them to create a position in the hierarchy for such a discussion.
(This is all theory, remember).
And a final quote from the "Usenet Newsgroup Creation Companion"
(available through the above URL):
"Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the
most vicious and bitter form of politics, because
the stakes are so low." He didn't know Usenet:
welcome to the next level."
--
Kirk B. Iverson kbi@io.org kbi@acm.org CIS:74361,3602
[31]
From: elandau@cais3.cais.com (Eric Landau)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: 29 Feb 1996 13:51:46 GMT
Subject: Re: Why is J discussed in comp.lang.apl
Martin Neitzel (neitzel@gaertner.de) wrote:
> Alan> I think that the structure suggests comp.lang.<anylanguage>.
> But not comp.lang.<anylanguagedialect>
> Bjorn> I think now that people looking for J do not think it a natural
> Bjorn> place to look for J under APL.
> Bjorn, as a distributor of J you should be able to grab the documentation
> you are selling, pick the "Dictionary" as the most important of the three
> books, and read the very first sentence:
> "J is a dialect of APL, a formal imperative language."
> I don't see why it should not be natural to look for J under APL...
It might be natural for us APLers and J'ers to look for J under APL, but
why would we expect someone who's just seen J for the first time and is
looking for it on Usenet to have it ever occur to them to look under APL?
I think this is Bjorn's point.
Sure, the Dictionary says that J is a dialect of APL, because they're
similar in underlying concept and so different from the usual run of
languages. But if underlying concept made for a mere difference in
dialect, Basic would be a dialect of Fortran, and Pascal would be a
dialect of Algol.
To someone not very familiar with them, APL and J look a lot more
different from one another than do Fortran and Basic or Pascal and Algol.
Imagine you've just seen both languages for the first time in back-to-
back half-day demos. Can anyone out there honestly claim that they would
recognize them as dialects of the same language?
Usenet recognizes C++ and Visual Basic as separate languages, not as
dialects to be looked for under C and Basic respectively. IMHO, to
insist on continuing the marriage of convenience between APL and J on
Usenet demonstrates the kind of insularity that we in the APL and J
communities resent being accused of by outsiders.
Even among ourselves, there are surely some people out there who use and
are interested in APL but not J, or J but not APL. As a practical
matter, it's a lot easier to subscribe to two newsgroups than it is to
subscribe to half a newsgroup.
Count my vote as one in favor of comp.lang.j.
--
Eric Landau, APL Solutions, Inc. (elandau@cais.com)
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger." -- Abbie Hoffman
[32]
From: jhowland@ariel.cs.trinity.edu (John E. Howland)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: 1 Mar 1996 16:07:40 GMT
Subject: Re: Why is J discussed in comp.lang.apl
Eric Landau (elandau@cais3.cais.com) wrote:
> Count my vote as one in favor of comp.lang.j.
I agree!. To continue to hide J within the APL community
seems to me to be a recipe which insures that it will continue
to be hidden. J is such an important gem that it deserves an
identity of its own which is clearly visible to all.
If I describe J as a dialect of APL, people often immediately
dismiss it as something that they would have little or no
interest in. This may not be the case in Europe or other
parts of the world, but this response is rather common in
the U.S.
John
--
________________________________________________________________
John E. Howland url: http://www.cs.trinity.edu/~jhowland/
Computer Science email: jhowland@ariel.cs.trinity.edu
Trinity University voice: (210) 736-7480
715 Stadium Drive fax: (210) 736-7477
San Antonio, Texas 78212-7200
[33]
From: n5gax@mack.rt66.com (Duke McMullan)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: 1 Mar 1996 10:24:13 -0700
Subject: Re: Why is J discussed in comp.lang.apl
In article <DnIo7w.o2F@gaertner.de>, Martin Neitzel <neitzel@gaertner.de>
wrote:
>I don't see why it should not be natural to look for J under APL.
Well, I've been a computer weenie since the sixties, and after catching the
article on J in Byte last year, it took me quite a bit of digging before I
found out that the J discussions occur here.
If you have a good feel for both the languages (I knew ~0 about apl, and I'd
never heard of J) such an inference might follow without difficulty, but for
one unfamiliar with the languages -- and their heritage and similarity --
there's precisely no reason whatever to associate the apl newsgroup with the
J language.
Would you expect someone green to computers to sit down at a UNIX terminal
and acquire a useful knowledge of the system and its capabilities using only
the man pages? Suppose the newbie was told that there's an online manual,
and that's it. It might take several days just to _find_ them. This is a
direct parallel to the topic.
>Each camp has certainly its own problems to tackle, but there's
>so much common ground that a split would be ridiculous in my view.
Ridiculous? Not at all. However, there doubtless are good arguments
against splitting the group.
If you want to place an informational "kinetic energy barrier" for potential
jugglers, well, you're doing it now, by design or no.
The truth-in-labelling laws suggest a slight change of newsgroup to
something like comp.lang.apl&j, although that embedded '&' might gag a lot
of newsreaders. Perhaps apl-and-j might fit better.
I suggest avoiding comp.lang.aplj. People might think you're discussing how
to make applejack. ;^)
d
--
Erin go braghless!
Duke McMullan n5gax nss13429rl phon505-255-4642 n5gax@mack.rt66.com
[34]
From: neitzel@gaertner.de (Martin Neitzel)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 20:45:09 GMT
Subject: Re: Why is J discussed in comp.lang.apl
> The truth-in-labelling laws suggest a slight change of newsgroup to
> something like comp.lang.apl&j, although that embedded '&' might gag a lot
> of newsreaders. Perhaps apl-and-j might fit better.
The correct approach would be to change not the newsgroup's name but
its description line. It currently reads:
comp.lang.apl Discussion about APL.
and could read
comp.lang.apl Discussion about APL, A, J, K, O and others.
Grepping this newsgroups list is the equivalent of a "man -k".
At any rate, if you came to J via the Byte article and as an non-APLer,
then it's really your opinion that counts, not mine. I give in.
I'll check out the current formal requirements and set up a straw poll
in the next days. Many people prefer to (or must) follow the J stuff
here via the gatewayted mailing list. I guess they are concerned
as well.
Martin Neitzel
[35]
From: donwiss@panix.com (Don Wiss)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 21:52:31 GMT
Subject: Re: Why is J discussed in comp.lang.apl
On 29 Feb 1996 13:51:46 GMT, elandau@cais3.cais.com (Eric Landau) wrote:
>Even among ourselves, there are surely some people out there who use and
>are interested in APL but not J, or J but not APL.
As someone with a major investment in an APL program, I have no interest in
J. Frequently I've had to open up articles to see whether J or APL was
being discussed, as the headers don't always say. And sometimes I've had to
read halfway through the article before finding that the question was about
J.
>Count my vote as one in favor of comp.lang.j.
Me too. I would think that the J users would like their own group. People
scanning the list of newsgroups would see it, and out of curiosity stop in
and check it out. But, I think the reason the J users want to remain here
is so they can try to convert the APL users over to their language.
Don.
[36]
From: donwiss@panix.com (Don Wiss)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 02:59:49 GMT
Subject: Re: Why is J discussed in comp.lang.apl
On Fri, 1 Mar 1996, neitzel@gaertner.de (Martin Neitzel) wrote:
>The correct approach would be to change not the newsgroup's name but
>its description line. It currently reads:
>
>comp.lang.apl Discussion about APL.
>
>and could read
>
>comp.lang.apl Discussion about APL, A, J, K, O and others.
I don't know where you see the description line, unless you are already
subscribed to the mailing list. My newsreader only lists the group names.
Don.
[37]
From: neitzel@gaertner.de (Martin Neitzel)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 00:47:01 GMT
Subject: Re: Why is J discussed in comp.lang.apl
> But, I think the reason the J users want to remain here is so they can try
> to convert the APL users over to their language.
If *I* were out to collect masses of converts, I'd go straight to
comp.lang.c and start there. The number of kids who would mistake
J to be some seventh generation C due to the name would
probably outnumber all APLers in this group.
You should see my evil grin now.
Martin Neitzel
[38]
From: donwiss@panix.com (Don Wiss)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 04:39:32 GMT
Subject: Re: Why is J discussed in comp.lang.apl
On 5 Mar 1996 01:52:47 GMT, murray@math.umass.edu (Murray Eisenberg) wrote:
>Rationale: With J still as new as it is, it is highly desirable that
>those familiar with APL and not yet of closed minds see discussion of
>J, too.
See, just what I said. The reason why the J people want to remain in this
group is so they can try to convert the APLers over to J.
Don.
[39]
From: Don Howson <howson@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:58:51 -0400
Subject: News group.
How about renaming the group "comp.lang.apl-j"? Anyone one looking for
either APL or J will know what it means.
.../don
/*==========================================================================*\
= DON HOWSON =
- NetWare and Microcomputer Consulting -
- Certified DOCS Open Reseller -
5 Silver's Road Internet: howson@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia Telephone: (902) 466-5521
CANADA B2Y 1S5 (BMW R65)
\*==========================================================================*/
[40]
From: donwiss@panix.com (Don Wiss)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 23:21:56 GMT
Subject: Re: News group.
On Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:58:51 -0400, Don Howson <howson@ccn.cs.dal.ca> wrote:
>How about renaming the group "comp.lang.apl-j"? Anyone one looking for
>either APL or J will know what it means.
Why would someone looking for the J group (let's say they just saw it
mentioned in a magazine) realize that apl-j means it is two languages in
the same group. It looks to me like just a version of apl. To draw in
prospective users it should be nothing less than comp.lang.j.
Don.
[41]
From: Ken Iverson <kei@Soliton.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:37:51 GMT
Subject: Dialects in comp.lang.apl
One reason for maintaining a group devoted to all
dialects of APL is the interest of different solutions
to the same problem, as in the solutions to the Ball
Clock problem given by Weigang (APL) and Hui (J).
I hope that more problems will be submitted with
invitations for solutions in any dialect. Here is one:
Although the binomial coefficient 10!21 is an integer,
the straightforward calculation of !21 divided by the
product of !10 and !11 would only approximate an integer,
because !21 is not represented to full precision. In the
first implementation of APL, Larry Breed provided
precise integers by judicious cancellations.
The problem posed is to write a corresponding precise
calculation of the binomial coefficients in some dialect.
[42]
From: Randy MacDonald <randy@godin.on.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:08:27 GMT
Subject: Re: Dialects in comp.lang.apl
Eric Landau <elandau@cais3.cais.com> writes:
> With all due respect, the question raised originally is whether APL and J
> should be considered dialects of the same language or separate languages,
> and Dr. Iverson seems to be saying tautologically that the answer is the
> former by assumption.
With all due respect, even if the above was the _original_ question,
perhaps
it is true that the _Important_ question being discussed here is whether
or not there should be a comp.lang.j newsgroup. I am also hard pressed to
see where the usefullness of comparing solutions in APL vs. J translates to
a tautological declaration of a dialect relationship. I am sure the
dialect vs. separate language debate will go on and on, but the real
question
is the creation of a new newsgroup. There exists an actual procedure for
the creation of the group, someone just has to do it.
> The fact that the solution to the ball clock -- or
> any other, or even just about any -- problem is logically similar in APL
> and J doesn't make them dialects of a single language; if it did, one
> could just as easily argue that Fortran and Basic, or Algol and Pascal,
> are dialects of the same language.
My perception is that the above Algol-based languages really are kissin'
cousins if not in fact dialects. APL and J also shares origins, and a
community, that even Nial doesn't even really share.
> It's certainly true that comparisons of problem solutions in APL and J
> make for interesting and informative reading, but so do comparisions of
> problem solutions in APL and C++, or in J and COBOL. And we'd all agree
> that the right place for those would be in a newsgroup devoted to
> comparing languages, not in single-language newsgroups devoted to the
> common languages of which APL and C++ or J and COBOL are dialects.
hmm... comp.lang.comparative; why would {person partisan to given language
X}
even BOTHER to look at this group. why not:
Subject: comparison of program in A vs. B
Newsgroups: comp.lang.a, comp.lang.b
This would certainly do. Of course the orders-of-magnitude difference
between J and C programs for example would for the most part be lost on
the latter news group. (I've tried.)
> I'd argue that dialects of a common language are both logically and
> notationally similar, e.g. C and C++, Algol 60 and Algol 68, APL\360 and
> APL2. Language groups, OTOH, consist of languages which are logically
> but not notationally similar, e.g. Fortran and Basic, Algol and Pascal,
> APL and J.
This is just hairsplitting semantics. When one language really has only a
handful of essential differences from another, and almost all of them are
extensions, I'd call it a dialect.
--
|\/| Randy A MacDonald |"You just ASK them?"
|\\| randy@godin.on.ca | Richard P. Feynman
BSc(Math) UNBF '83 | APL: If you can say it, it's done.
Natural Born APL'er | *** GLi Info: info@godin.on.ca ***
| Also http://www.godin.com/godin/
------------------------------------------------<-NTP>----{ gnat }-
[43]
From: Mike Kent <70530.1226@CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: 13 Mar 1996 20:12:09 GMT
Subject: Re: Dialects in comp.lang.apl
I do not think that it's a good idea to spin off a new newsgroup
for J, but the practical issue that people may not look at c.l.a
immediately if they're interested in J is not insignificant.
What might serve better (and get people from outiside the [APL,
J, Nial] world to look in) is a renaming of the newsgroup to
something like "comp.lang.array-oriented"; this tactic serves
the people interested in functional languages pretty well, the
newsgroup named "comp.lang.functional" covering discussion of
all functional languages, not just of some language named
"functional".
// mike kent
--
mkent@acm.org
[44]
From: trubisz@cs.sunysb.edu (Joe Trubisz)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: 17 Sep 1996 14:57:15 GMT
Subject: Why not comp.lang.J?
I've been a APL programmer for a awfully long time. I have read in
such places as Vector, how little APL is used in colleges and
industry, compared to other languages. Namely, APL has an identity
crisis which is getting worse. Now we have this new language, J,
which takes a good number of pages in Vector and has a significant
number of postings in this newsgroup. When Vector wondered in a
issue not too long ago why APL is not flourishing, then maybe this
can be looked at as a good reason. Why should someone use APL when
the magazines and even this user group seems to be switching to J?
If APL dies (which I think it will eventually will, and not in the
distant future either), then all the people who jumped on the J
bandwagon at the expense of APL should be held accountable.
If you want to discuss J, then start your own group. Let the APLers
remain APLers, or else we'll see APL fall by the wayside as some
ancient language did thousands of years ago.
Joe Trubisz
Dept. of Computer Science
SUNY Stony Brook
Stony Brook, NY 11794
[45]
From: cdburke@aol.com (CDBurke)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: 18 Sep 1996 13:04:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Why not comp.lang.J?
Joe Trubisz writes:
>If APL dies (which I think it will eventually will, and not in the
>distant future either), then all the people who jumped on the J
>bandwagon at the expense of APL should be held accountable.
If APL dies you can hardly blame J. APL was in decline well before
J came on the scene. Rather, you should be delighted that a modern
replacement for APL is now available.
Gary Mooney writes:
>There's lots of interesting discussion at the micro level of J. But why
>are there so few messages at the macro level -- i.e. commercial
>applications of J? Gosi is about the only one who introduces topics
>that have a commercial flavour. Is no one doing commercial development
>in J? Do the developers stay away from this newsgroup? Any thoughts?
This comment is true of any language newsgroup - people ask questions
about the language, rather than announce their applications. A good idea
of the usage of J can be had from the Proceedings of the recent J User
Conference.
[46]
From: donwiss@panix.com (Don Wiss)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 04:57:05 GMT
Subject: Re: Why not comp.lang.J?
On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, "C. Andrew Shepp" <72644.2615@compuserve.com> wrote:
>Finally on this too-long thread, I want "j" in the comp.lang.apl
>group so I can have one fewer newsgroups to read.
That is a rather selfish response. What about the time some of us waste
downloading a message to read, many subjects are ambiguous, and it turns
out to be for the other language, which we're not interested in?
All long as the J people hide in this APL group the language will never
have a major presence in the newsgroups, which is an important part of the
Net. The future of J should be more important than your laziness.
Don.
[47]
From: donwiss@panix.com (Don Wiss)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.apl
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 05:16:08 GMT
Subject: Re: apl program for Cubic Eq.
Don Guinn <donguinn@wt.net> wrote:
>Leonard Howell wrote:
>>
>> I'm trying to find an apl program that gives the closed form solution to a
>> general cubic equation, and then another program for the general quartic
>It would be easy to convert these procedures to J since J
>handles complex numbers.
>
>There's something in the J Dictionary about factoring polinomials, but
>I'm still new to J and haven't gotten into that yet.
Don Guinn,
Why is it that the J people have to impose their J on everybody? Leonard
clearly asked for an APL program. It's even thoughtfully put in the
subject. You go off and talk about J. It's bad enough that the J people are
camping out in the APL group, but at least be discrete about it!
Don Wiss.
Home Page